Paula
Welcome Sonja. We're here today with Let's Fermata! This is actually the third episode and it's the first one in English, so I'm kind of excited and nervous at the same time.
Sonja
I can totally understand. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
Paula
Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to start by talking about how we met. I always like to share a little story because I find that it's interesting. And I remember that we met in 2013 when we were in the Festival Casals. And at that point, I remember seeing you from afar, and I was very intimidated.
Sonja
(Laughs)
Paula
Because you're such a great player. And I was just like: "Oh my God, I feel so horrible right now." And, but one of the memories I have of that festival is that something wasn't working out for me, and you could see that I wasn't feeling good about it. And you came and reached out to me, and you said: "Hey, why don't you just like hold your harmonic a little bit longer?" Like, I can even remember it still. And (Oh my god!) because what I... yeah! Because what I got from that was like, okay, she's a human, she's nice. She's not only an amazing player, but you know, she's willing to help. Uh, (Absolutely) so that's always gonna be my first memory of you.
Sonja
Oh my god! Yeah, I've been told that when I play, I have a very serious face. Because like when (Mhmm)
I'm not playing, I feel like I'm smiling a lot. But when I play, I have a very serious face. And so, I have heard from different people that sometimes they just think, "Oh my god, maybe she's not human."
Paula
No, but I think it was just the whole kind of festival situation. It was... it was a different experience for me. But after that, I think we met in 2015 and it was nice. I don't think we chatted too much either, but it was like, okay, "I know she's approachable." (Yes!) Like I can talk to her. And you've always been very supportive, so thank you. And I guess I wanted to talk about Ecuador, cause I think that's the time where we spoke the longest. When we were switching jobs (Yeah) and I just wanted you to share a little bit about your experience in, in moving. 'Cause I know that that's always difficult and I know you liked Ecuador, so kind of just start by sharing how that was for you.
Sonja
Yeah. So the whole Ecuador experience seems like such an adventure and I sometimes think about it and question if it was real, because I didn't grow up speaking Spanish and I didn't know Spanish when I moved to Ecuador in the first place. And then I was there for basically only nine months, but made it my home. And then, my dream was always to go to the US and get a job here as a, as a cello professor. And this opportunity came up, and I won the job, but it was really hard for me to say that I want to leave Ecuador. I didn't want to leave Ecuador. Like point blank, I did not want to leave Ecuador. I found friends there. I found a family there. And, um, it was after studying a nice break for me as a human. So, I studied at Indiana University, which I loved in so many aspects because I had like the best teacher and mentor, but I felt the pressure of the university a lot. It did not serve me well for, for multiple things, for mental, mental health, but also for the joy of music making. I feel like I felt too much pressure compared to the joy. So, being in Ecuador, it was the opposite. I felt zero pressure and just joy, just living my life. Waking up every morning knowing a different word or a new word in a language that I didn't speak before. And so it was just learning without pressure. Whereas in school, I felt the pressure, and I put that on myself more than when anybody, but in the moment, I felt like I couldn't change it. So, leaving Ecuador was really hard because I think many former students can relate that once you leave the university and you start a job... for the first time, you have money. You don't need to think about every cent that you spend, and you don't need to pay for school. You're getting paid for what you love doing. And so that was a big pressure off my shoulders. And then the whole aspect of, like, I don't study for grades anymore. Like there's no exam. It's just... it's succeeding in life that's important. So, I needed to succeed as a player. I needed to succeed as a teacher, but it involved other people other than me getting an A in a class. And then the people were just unbelievably nice and kind. And I love the culture. So leaving that, uh, it was not easy. It was actually very, very hard, and I thought about it a lot at the moment, even though I was always working towards what I have currently, which is a job at a university, like a tenure track, and now a tenured job at the university, in the US… but that doesn't mean it wasn't unbelievably hard to just say, I'm leaving a country. I'm leaving friends, and I leave families behind that I really start loving and... yes, that transition was definitely one of the two hardest. So I had the one where I came to the US, which was hard in itself, just because I've never lived so far from home, and a different language, and then culture shock, everything came with it. Um, so that was hard. And then coming back to the US was hard just because I associated being in the US with a lot of pressure and stress. Both personally, but mostly actually professionally. And I just didn't feel that in Ecuador.
Paula
Well, I think you've done amazingly with everything. (Thanks!) I know that, that from afar it's easier said than done. Because I've also lived through those changes. And, you know, most recently I've moved to Canada so it's like a restart again. So I know that it still takes a lot of, a big toll in our emotional state, I think, (Yeah) um, starting again. I admire you a lot for what you've done, and, like, you know... you had a dream, you had a goal, and you went for it, and, you've done it now. So you're, like, living, (Yeah) living your dream, basically.
Sonja
I really am. The one thing that I want to say about this is that I do feel like my resume and whatever is out there, like social media and whatnot, it seems more perfect than my life is. There are struggles, and I talk with my students a lot about that, actually. Because I think it's very discouraging when you have a teacher or mentor for whom everything seems to be easy, like, everything just seems to magically work out. And yes, they are busy, and they're practicing, and they're writing emails and organizing, but everything seems to magically work out, and… and that's not the case. I have my struggles, I have my days of doubt. I sometimes get angry. It gets less and less. The more I get older, I get much, much less angry about things or frustrated. But the resume that you see printed in programs and that you see on the websites and all the concerts that I do where I put them on Facebook and recently also a little bit Instagram. Yes, they're all a lot of fun, and it works out great. But I don't want that anybody gets the illusion that it's easy or it's straightforward just because it seems like it. I don't think many people go out there and say: "Yeah, I had a really rough time doing this project, and everything was pretty chaotic until the very end." You just show the concert pictures, and you don't tell the whole story because that's kind of how our world kind of also works. But when it comes to talking to students, when it comes to talking to other musicians, like on a one-on-one setting, or even in a group, I'm more than happy to always share the struggles too, so that everybody knows that they're not alone in their struggles either.
Paula
Yeah, no, that's great. And I think that might be why I've felt comfortable talking to you at some points. I mean, not that I've shared every struggle that I've had, but, there's been things... uh, I remember one conversation we started having about a year, almost now ago through WhatsApp where I was like: "Oh, I'm feeling this and this," and you were like responding like: "Oh, I'm feeling this and this," and I felt seen. Because I'm like, oh, this, you know, Sonja is like, in my eyes, she's doing so great. But it doesn't imply that there's not a lot of effort behind it because there obviously is. But I felt comfortable speaking to you about it, and I'm really glad you're here today to, to kind of open up about this. And actually, going back to that conversation. I think what I was telling you was: "Oh, let's have an open conversation with other cellists because I feel like we stay so many years in school, and then you're kind of alone, and there's so many things that come to mind. And I think what I was sharing was that for me, leaving school and starting a job in Ecuador was very difficult because I had my teacher's voice very ingrained in my brain. And I don't think it's left. It's just that now I feel more comfortable about also listening to my voice. And I wanted to talk about this with you because you and I had that same situation where we had the same teachers for our master's and doctoral degrees. How was it for you these experiences of teaching in the UEES and then USD for you? and how has that helped solidify your voice?
Sonja
So, I think the teacher will always be in the back of your mind. Especially when you do two degrees with them, and you study with them for... for four or five years, depending on how fast you do them. But even my undergrad teacher, like, there are still things that I reference. The way he explains backwards shift, for example. That's totally my undergrad teacher still speaking through me. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have your mentor's voice consistently in the back of your mind if that voice is something you... respect and want. And in my case, I think I had an incredible teacher and mentor. So, like me saying something that he has told me before or that I have seen him tell another student, I think that's great. I do put my own twist on it, and I, the, the funny thing or not funny, the curious thing is that if you look at the playing of my, my former professor, Emilio Colón and my playing, you see very many like technical similarities. I feel like our left hand set up looks almost exactly the same, and you can definitely tell with the bow hand that I also studied with him. Even though our proportions are a little bit different and arm length. And, and also like, uh, especially with the right hand. Kind of also depends on how your elbow is shaped. If it's like straight, it's more straight than mine, it's more crooked. So there are differences, but you can definitely tell that I'm his former student. However, our interpretations are very different in, in many ways. And it's neither a good or bad thing. It's just like, we are different artists. We have different interpretations. We have different things that we want to bring out. We are also two very different humans. The one thing where we totally agree on is that we are serving the music, and we are serving the community through music. So everything that we do, musically speaking, has to serve music as well as the community, as well as creating art and meaningful interactions. But when it comes to teaching, I've definitely become my own teacher, and I have also a very different teaching style in many aspects. Just in the way I approach a lesson. But that also depends a little bit on the level of students that you have. For example, at Indiana University, he gets students from the beginning that are at a higher skill than I would get at the University of South Dakota. That doesn't mean I don't get them to a level towards the end of their degree, but it just means I start somewhere else. So my lessons have to be more directed towards practicing strategies and how to practice, and not just basically giving concepts and then trusting that the students with those concepts can figure it out themselves. Which I love for me and I love for all the students that are studying at Indiana University, but I think if we would switch jobs we would both have to adapt our teaching styles just according to the students that we have. So I have become very confident, especially as a teacher, because I see it working. And I think that nobody ever has to tell me: "You're such a good teacher" so that I feel good. I, I know, I know when I see my students, and they interact with me, they interact with other students, and they perform well. I know that it's working. And, I also educate that like passionate mind that wants something out of life, meaning that you find your purpose, whatever that means for you in the musical world, but also in just like society itself. And... so, long story short, when it comes to how I explain technique, how I explain concepts... yes, that's absolutely Emilio Colón talking in the back of my head. And I just kind of put my accent and my little spin on it, but like that's, that's… that's definitely him talking through my… through my mouth. But then when it comes to like details of how I approach a lesson, it's just, it's very different. And I think that's a very good thing.
Paula
And how do you help your students create their own voices? like, with teaching through technique and everything, how do you teach them to become their own teachers?
Sonja
So... the basic answer is that they need to understand how to solve their own problems. So I always talk about two different toolboxes. There's the technical toolbox and then the musical slash knowledge toolbox. So the technical toolbox is the one where you have a hard passage and you need to figure out how to practice it in order to successfully perform it in the end. So there, it's the basis is technical concepts, and then I work a lot on practicing strategies. So, like, what exercises can you be doing in order to make a specific passage better? Just the understanding of the mechanics. How to play the instrument is really important, as well as, like, injury prevention. Meaning your playing has to be, efficient so that you don't overwork particular muscles. And from what I know, this is a very Starker approach to.. like Starker, with the teacher of my former professor, or who was the teacher of my former professor. Well, it's very much like this is how the mechanics work and with the knowledge of that, you can solve all your own problems. So, we definitely built that knowledge foundation very early on in the degree and then just built upon that. There are always new technical challenges that need to be solved and oftentimes a modification of a practicing strategy can be adapted, but it's like the toolbox just gets fuller and fuller. And then the other aspect is yes, you have to find your own musical voice and what you have to say in like, in society and music society. That is a little bit more complicated because I do think that doesn't just have to do with playing. So I have a…two conversations per semester with my students. One is in the beginning and one is in the middle of the semester about what they, like, if the degree would end right now, what would they want to do? What is their dream job in the future? And also, what do they think right now would be a realistic job if they would graduate right now? And... That view changes oftentimes. They go to a class, or they listen to a concert, or they play in a chamber music group, and suddenly they find a different niche or passion that they really want to follow. And then we have to adapt to that new passion or the new direction. So that conversation I have always twice a semester and then in the spring semester we also have it in the end of the spring semester. To make sure that the structure… the summer is structured, and that the summer is productive, and that they also take their time away from school to think a little bit more about their life and their direction and to dive deeper into those subjects. You know, go to a particular festival, or play a specific piece, or read a specific book. So it's a constant conversation, and then just when it comes to that, the toolbox itself, the musical and knowledge one, there's always the aspect of reading up on the composer, reading up on the epoch, the performance practice. And then taking the technical tools to create whatever, like, phrasing idea, musical idea they have. So, lots of the technical aspects actually link into the musical ones, like when you talk about vibrato colors, or tone colors, or whatnot. There's always an aspect where you need to know how to create those tone colors, but it's not any more of like, it's a technical problem that I want to solve, but more it's a musical issue that I would like to become better at. So, I just try to fill both of those toolboxes with my students, and I ask a lot of questions. So, my teaching is very much based on what do you already know?, what do you want?, and how can I help you to get there? Now, I also tell them where they need to go, but it's just an aspect of teaching. It's not all my teaching. So that's how I try to have all students find their own voices, and then it's really important for me that there is some level of competition and comparison, but it's based on just you pushing yourself more than anything. Because currently I really don't have two students who truly I think will ever compete for the same job. I think all of them have already found their own direction. The ones that are like above a sophomore level. So the first two years are always a search, but, the ones that are becoming juniors, I truly don't think that they are moving in the same direction when it comes to their profession. And that's great because then they can help each other and support each other without even the fear that they would ever get in each other's professional way.
Paula
Well, and now that you're mentioning this... I wanted to talk about your teaching philosophy because I did read through it before this interview and I really loved it. I was surprised to see that you had the mental aspect on there. (mhmm) Because I don't think it's something that most teachers put in their teaching philosophies. And I think it's very important. And the first part was, you know, acknowledging that this is a very... a career full of pressure, but then that thing you mentioned about competition and having a healthy relationship to it in order to feel fulfilled as a musician. So I wanted to ask how you encourage this to happen?
Sonja
Well, one of the big things that I like about my studio is that we have really become a family, and I'm not sure everybody... I feel like who has siblings has a healthy competition with their siblings, but they also love each other, you know, like, so... and that's what I want to create. I want to create something where you root for each other, but you're also like: "Oh, I couldn't do that yet. So why not?" And then you work harder. So, and that's what I mean with healthy competition. I want that you strive for becoming better. And if there's a student that is better, let's try to become as good or even better or in another aspect, uh, just like more versatile or something like that. But unhealthy competition for me is that you want the other person to fail and you only think that the only way you can succeed is by the other person to not succeed. And that's just something that I think it's just fundamentally wrong. Yeah, there is an abundance of possibilities and we just have to find our path in those possibilities. Now, studio dynamic, in my opinion, is crucial in a university. Especially in a university my size. So, I do a lot of activities that have to do with bonding, and like, even if it's just I'm... I'm here at 9 p.m. practicing, and I hear cello sounds coming out of practice rooms. I'm like, “Have you eaten dinner? No? Okay, so I order three pizzas." They all hang out in my studio while I write some emails. Yeah, so these aspects are really important so that there's the support amongst the students. I think that I have a really good relationship with all of my students, but sometimes you don't want to tell your professors all your problems, you know? So there is, I feel like they trust me, but there is still a filter. And I know that, and I don't even want that that changes, but then to whom else can they go? They need to go to someone who can relate. And the best person that can relate to whatever struggle they're going through is another student in the studio. Because it might be a moment where I'm particularly strict with a student. I know that has actually happened. There was a situation where I had the feeling "I need to push one particular student just a little bit harder because they're not living up to their potential," which is literally all I want. I don't want that you reach that particular level that is measurable with other people. No, I just want that everybody lives up to their potential. And I know that there was a lesson where I was pretty direct and they kept it together in the lesson. But they left and had like a not happy afternoon. And in that situation, if you don't have anybody you can go to and discuss it, then that's frustrating. And it's also then a unproductive pressure or an unproductive situation. But they could go to others and discuss what has happened, what was said, and then reframe it, reword it, and then come out the other end. And then, like I swear, the next lesson was so productive and so good and so great, and it was a breakthrough. But it was a breakthrough that could not have happened if I wouldn't have known that they have always a safe space with me, but also a safe space with their peers. And that is that, healthy relationship that I really try to foster, because if I, if that wouldn't be the case, then I... I cannot be that direct. I cannot be that strict sometimes if I don't know they have people where they can bounce those ideas off on. And if you go to somebody who studies with the same teacher and you... you say: "This is what happened in the lesson." They can be like: "Oh yeah, I understand. But why don't you see it that way? I think it was meant this and that way." So it's a group effort. However, when it comes to competitions itself, we have... we have concerto competitions. We have moments where people actually compete and compete for prizes. I always teach the support and the encouragement that we need to give each other. And then competitions itself, you never know if they are like... they're never objectively fair. They're always subjective. There are people that judge. And sometimes you come out in the end and win and you're like: "really?" And other times you're like, don't win. And you're like: "really?" So the aspect of... you just need to be your best self. And when you help others to become their best self, they help you to become your best selves. And so in the end, the only competition that you should worry about is the competition with yourself. So if you can be better every day, not every day, it goes in a wave. But like every year there should be a trajectory upwards. And the steeper you can get that trajectory, the better it is for your own development. But your trajectory is always going to be different than... than others. Now, when it comes to mental health, since I have written the teaching philosophy, I have learned a lot. I still think that mental health in our business is crucial. There's a lot of pressure. There is always this sense of insecurity, even though I don't think we have to be insecure about our futures. But that's just something that I've realized after I was out of school. I had the same insecurities and worries. The one thing that has changed since I wrote the teaching philosophy is that instead of just focusing on mental health and balance, I have added the aspect of educating resilience. So, I personally think that resilience comes from a mental balance. But it can also just... it has to be added to how we think about mental health, especially as musicians. There are so many moments where we can and are probably judged. But if that throws us off our track consistently, then we will not be as happy and successful as we could be. Now, how can we become mentally more resilient? Well, it is tough, and it is also a tough lesson to learn truth be told. But it's just one of those things when you go through a phase where things are not going your way or things are just not ideal. It's the problem-solving mindset that I'm trying to educate instead of just like, the victim attitude that ... I see a lot, not just in music, but just anywhere. Anywhere where I go, I see this like: "Oh, this is happening to me, and I can't do anything about it." But if you focus on what you can do about it, even if it's just minimal, or you can just try to push it away... that really builds resilience. And I have seen that the students where I get through with that, which is actually the majority, they are much less actually sick. Like they don't get as many colds as other people. (Mhmm) They..get much less stressed, actually, even though they do a lot and a ton. But it's the feeling of being stressed and stressed out. It goes down with every semester where we work on that. And then just the aspect of knowing what creates the negative emotions and being proactive about writing it, for example. Like doing things last minute, the work becomes not more, it just becomes more stressful. So we're working a lot on that, on like, what can we do to be mentally more balanced and to be more resilient? And it actually has had a big impact on both the productivity, but also when... that's really important, the happiness and the contentedness of the students. Because they feel more in control and more like they (Yeah.) can tackle anything that comes their way. (Yeah.)
Paula
I really like this because, I mean I had a great teacher, but I think my mental health was not... well, I don't think it's ever been really great and I think it goes beyond music. And I mean, we're talking about music now, but in reality, it's just like, we're humans. So it's gonna affect every aspect (Mhmm) our life. And I think if you have, in my case, where I've had things that are outside of the music, and then I mix it with this passion that I have towards music, and then it becomes an issue for me. Especially for example, with the performance anxiety and healthy competition. I think in my experience, it hasn't been so much of like: "I want this person to fail, and you know that means that I'm gonna be better," but that it's kind of like: "This person won because I suck." You know what I mean? Like it's a... (Yeah.) It's, more like I'm digging a hole that's bigger for myself, and it's like: "Oh yeah, you need to go deeper." So for me, it's been working outside of music with this and then seeing how it affects positively my musical making. Because I've always had this thing with performance anxiety. Like I prepare a lot, I do so much, and then when, when I get on stage, it's kind of like, I'm frozen. This part of me just doesn't even know what's happening. And I mean, I bring this out because I think it's important to acknowledge that it's work that is very difficult, but that it's really a lot that happens outside of the music. It just kind of gets mixed in it as well. And guess with this I wanted to ask if you've had this experience where you've had students or colleagues that you've seen that struggle with this performance anxiety or like imposter syndrome or something. How you've helped or even if you’ve felt it yourself.
Sonja
Oh, absolutely. I think anybody who's a musician would be lying if they say they have never had performance anxiety or imposter syndrome. (Mhmm) I mean, it comes with the job. That's just, that's just what it is. Um, (Yeah) ...you just have to know how… how to deal with it. And it took me forever. Like, it took me for freaking ever. Truth be told, I was always very anxious and perfectionistic. Also, it came a little bit from my parents. My mom is unbelievably or was unbelievably strict, and nothing other than perfection was ever good enough. Which creates young adults where the inner voice basically is constantly criticizing and nothing is ever good enough. Which didn't help with the joy of music making truth be told, because, like every concert that I gave, I always felt terrible about it. And it didn't matter how many people told me I played well or that it impacted them. It never was good enough. So, for me, the frustrating aspect when I was younger was that you work towards a goal and when you're young and you don't have that many concerts, you know, you have like a recital a semester, maybe, or if you have a chamber music group, then maybe there are a few more, but the actual recitals are very few. And so you work and work and work and work, and then you have your recital and afterwards you feel bad. And that was my life. That was my life as a student. And my problem was perfectionism. It didn't mean my performance anxiety rarely impacted me to a way where I played worse than I practiced, which that is another aspect of performance anxiety that I can't personally relate to, but I've had students where that's the case, so I can speak to that. (Mhmm) However, for me, the joy of performing was ruined by me being nervous and perfectionistic. I tried a lot of things. I tried meditation, I tried doing ... I tried like progressive muscle relaxation before the concert and visualization. And, like, took seminars on performance anxiety and whatnot. And in the end, two things did the trick for me. The first one was once I was out of school, performing became a job. It's no longer something where I get a grade for or get judged on, but it's something where I go out, and most people that come just want to have a good time and want to be impacted by your music making. So, the goal of going on stage becomes different. So that was the first thing. And the second thing was that it became very frequent. So, I mean, during COVID that was a whole other time. And I also realized that after COVID, I was, again, more nervous than when I basically stopped kind performing before COVID. So it definitely is like a routine thing too. So the more you do it, the better you get at it... like trying to figure out your feelings during it. But the aspect of like: "Yeah, if today's concert doesn't go that well, well, I have one more in two days. It's not that big of a deal," you know? And that doesn't mean I don't have the ambition to play well. It's just I don't stress myself out about it anymore. And I can finally enjoy being on stage and actually enjoying the music. However, there was one person that impacted my thinking about performing anxiety. His name is Nicholas Pellison; I think it's pronounced his last name. He is a performance coach of the New World Symphony Orchestra, and he came here to USD in my first year to actually give a talk about performance anxiety. And I went to the talk and I went to the Q & A, and then I went even to the extra evening thing that he did. Because what he said spoke a lot to me. He is trained in like all kinds of... like he has a psychology degree and like Feldenkrais and Alexander Technique and all kinds of things because he was trying to figure out how can I help musicians with exactly that aspect. You go on stage and either you don't enjoy it or you play worse or it's just total panic. And so he did a lot of things with a lot of clients over the years, and one question that usually those performance coaches always ask is: "What is your, what has been your best performance where you felt the best?" and then you think about it, and then the next question is: "Well, what did you think? What did you feel during that performance?" And usually, the answer is: "Not that much. Really, not that much. Like, I don't remember what I was thinking." It just, I played. And then he basically drew the conclusion that giving people things to do right before the performance, like you need to do X, Y, and Z of breathing, or meditate, or do this and that, and you need to visualize how you go on stage and it goes perfectly. That's all thinking. That's all doing something actively when the goal is to go out and play and not think that much. Especially not like unproductive thinking. So, instead of training musicians to... do something specific before a performance, it's just like, just change your mindset. Just know that thoughts come and thoughts go. And if you don't give them that much attention, then you will just perform. And that changed my mind. That changed my whole outlook on nervousness and anxiety. And it really helped me a lot. And then I started like, reading some books. Right now I read a book that's called: Don't Believe Everything You Think. It's a very short read, but it's basically... it talks about happiness in life and how to achieve happiness in life. And the basic idea is that thinking, the more you think, the unhappier you are. If you have thoughts that come and are productive, that's good. But thinking about thoughts that's the thing that… that really stresses us out and makes us unhappy. And then it comes back to what you said before, we're talking about this from a musician aspect, but it actually everything that we're talking about relates to life as well. And so, yeah, these were kind of my personal experiences... when I have some colleagues that get really nervous and I tell them my approach, which is keep your days normal, your performance days. So, I used to be a person that couldn't do anything leading up to a concert. I needed to basically not teach and just practice and even homework I tried to push off and whatnot. And now I'm like: "Okay, I teach until five, I go home, I eat something super tiny, quick. I get dressed. I go to a concert and I play. The more normal I can keep concert day, the less stressed I'm about it. Because it's just now part of my day instead of: "Oh, it's this huge thing that is much more important than anything else that I do in my life." So, the amount of importance you give to a certain event in your life will change how you feel about it. So I always give the recommendation “just keep your day normal.” Do you drink coffee normally in the morning? Do it. Yeah, and there are people who stop drinking coffee three days before important performance (Yeah) because they are afraid of bow shaking, and I'm like: "Guess what? Your body is craving the caffeine, and that makes you shaky. Not the thing that has caffeine in it." So that's my first recommendation. My second recommendation is just that you will play well if you're in a good mood. So, I joke around before concerts. I have talks with the backstage people and just get to know their life story and whatnot. So I'm just being a human, and then I'm a human that walks on stage and plays a concert. And that's literally it. My students, I have one student that now is doing exceptionally well. He came to me and was like: "I can't perform. I just, even if I play a Suzuki Book 2 performance piece and I have to play it in front of people my bow is shaking." And he demonstrated that that's actually the case. And for him, I just said: "Okay, you play in every studio class until you figure out that you're going to come out live after studio class." And so it has resolved it. So, the aspect of “you need to do 10 million things in order to resolve performance anxiety”, in my opinion, is a trap that we have created ourselves. However, there are people, even in my immediate surrounding, who do amazingly well if they sit down like half an hour before a concert and they meditate for 15 minutes. They… for them, that's what helped. So you need to figure out, everybody needs to figure out what is the thing that works for you. Not what works for me. You can get inspirations, but that's about it.
Paula
Yeah, I think it is a very personal journey and think when I was studying I did talk about this topic with some friends. But they're like: "Yeah, just whatever. It's... I know it's gonna suck," or like... there's a different approach to acting like you don't care and kind of going on stage with that attitude so that you don't care and then you don't shake or whatever. For me, it was all like: "Oh my god, I'm gonna go there. I'm already nervous." My recitals were horrible in the sense of how I felt. And then, you know, had the same experience of people coming to me like: "Oh, you almost made me cry,” and I'm Like, “What? I was about to throw up, in there”. So I think it is a very different thing, and sometimes it helped me to remember: "Okay, what I'm doing is not gonna kill anyone." And I had an experience with one recital that you one of my friends she dropped her bow... like it flew to the audience, and I was like: "Oh my god, I'm so happy that never happened to me." But then the reaction of the audience was we just laughed, and then she kept going. Things like this can happen and It's not the end of the world. And for me, it helps a little bit to remind me of this idea. It doesn't mean that it always works out. There's different days, different ways of how I feel, but I think it has gotten better for me. And... I'm glad that most of my students don't go through this. I'm really happy for them, but when I do see something it’s, like, I feel also: "Okay, so, I've tried, like, a thousand things, so maybe one of these will work for you.
Sonja
That's just the general teaching grade when you have gone through stuff, actually. Because I think you're a better teacher if you needed to figure out things for yourself. So now you have like, even when it comes to technique, but also performance anxiety, how you have tried like a million things…you can try them with your students and see what works for them. I've actually forgotten one important aspect that I always talk about which is that you will not change anybody's mind about you in one performance. And once I realized that I was like: "Okay, it's really like not a life and death situation." So if you go to a performance and you perform there will be people in the audience that love you. There were usually are people that know you, they love you. And then they... like, let's just say you have the worst performance of your life. They still find something positive about it, and they will still love you afterwards. Now, there might also be people in the audience that are jealous or humans that just don't particularly care for you. Even if you have the best performance of your life, they will find something about your interpretation or whatnot. And where like: "Yeah, I just kind of, you know, I didn't like her hair." So it's like those people; they will find something negative to think and to say, and you will not make them love you just because you have a good performance. So the impact, and that's, that's the thing that I changed. I play for the people that are just there because I will not, I will not... like the people that love me, they will have a good experience anyways, the people that don't like me: "Yeah. whatever, they're just there." But there are, there are people who are just in the audience. They don't know you, or they might know you but have never heard you, or they just come to have a great musical experience. I play for them. I play to make an impact on the people that are just there with an open heart and open ears. And a missed note is not a big deal. Even if you throw your bow in the audience, well, then they have something to talk about over dinner. (Yeah) Yeah? So it's really, it's really not that crucial of a life event where exactly like somebody dies. You're not a surgeon; you're just a musician. (Yeah) Yeah. You can't, but you can, like... that's the impact. You can change somebody's day by doing or by performing an impactful performance. You can really change somebody's day, or month or year by what you're doing. So it's still unbelievably important. It's not... just not life and death. (Yeah)
Paula
And I guess I umm, I gave you like a reference of “serious but fun”. Because for me even when you play and you mentioned that you're kind of serious and everything, but I can see that you’re having fun. Even if that wasn't always the case, the times that I've had the experience of seeing you play I've always enjoyed it. I'm like: "Oh my… like it just kind of like… it just feels like she worked her ass off, and now she's letting it go, you know. So, I wanted to ask how you…. even if you don't always feel that way, if it's something that you practice. Or if it's something that once you're in the practice room you treat one way, and then when you're in the performance, (Um, no.) it's kind of a different mindset.
Sonja
It's the same mindset in practicing too. So, it depends on if I do technical practicing, meaning I'm figuring out a passage, or if I'm in that stage where I'm like trying to create the musical lines and stuff. I think, truth be told, I do think that my fun in life and on stage is a little bit the personality thing, though. I am, I wouldn't say I'm the happiest person. I have a lot of moments that are not just happy. And also happiness is, uh, something I'm not... no longer striving towards. I'm striving towards purpose. So, purpose creates happiness. Happiness doesn't create purpose. it's just the whole aspect of like, when are we happy? Well, I'm happy if I eat a bowl of ice cream. But that doesn't give me like life purpose, right? But if (Yeah) I find like, if I have a great teaching day, I can be really exhausted but I still have this like huge happiness and contentment in my heart. So, I do think that my outlook on life and situations 80, 90 percent of the time is problem-solving oriented and looking for the things that can be done oriented. And therefore, my outlook on life is just in general, a little bit more positive than some others. And I'm not saying I'm the happiest or most positive person. I'm just saying I'm towards that. So I enjoy many things in life. I think the things that I dread the most in life are emails, and I think any person in academia can relate. But I still find a way to make it fun. So I recently bought a walking pad and I now have a walking pad underneath my very weird setup because it's now it's a walking pad underneath the standing desk that was too short. So I bought a stepper that I put on my standing desk, and then I have a clip-on thing for my laptop where my laptop goes on so that I don't look down. But I'm now walking every morning doing my emails, and it's now kind of fun because I'm like, well, at least I'm doing something good for myself. So, so it's, it's that aspect of the way I talk about things too. You always hear the energy, the... the, like wanting to create something, wanting to do something. That just translates to my playing. Now, do I think you have to have that characteristics in your personality? I don't truly think so. I think for me it's just that aspect I think for me is easier than for other people. What I try to teach is that you need to make sure that you always seek out the characteristics of the music and try to have fun while doing that. So if it's really something joyous that where you create that line, and you're like: "Oh, that was cool," you will feel that in the performance. And then the other aspect is just that when you…when you have that fun during the practicing time it will also make it go by faster, and you will not dread practicing. So it kind of, it kind of just goes hand in hand. There was one more thing that I wanted to say about this, but it slipped my mind. It was something about the practicing of it. Yeah. if it comes to me, I will say it again.
Paula
Yeah, I guess I wanted to ask you, as well about what do you do outside of music to connect with yourself? Because I mean, you're a very busy musician. You know, you're teaching, you're performing, you're emailing. You know, you're doing so many things. And I mean, I just kind of wonder what else you do to connect with Sonja. Not just Sonja, like the cellist or Sonja the musician, but how you connect with yourself.
Sonja
Well, that question is a little bit more difficult because I... I don't do that much outside of my job. And I don't say that in a negative way because I choose to do it that way. I really love what I do. I wake up every morning wanting to do everything that I need to do, especially during the school year. And therefore I don't feel the particular need to have like any type of big hobby or something like that. My colleagues know here that I'm the happiest during the school year. During the summer where all of it... like all the teaching gets stripped away from me, for example, I'm actually… feel less fulfilled than during the school year. But it's a time where I organize, where I do all the paperwork to have a successful year. Where I call it my “execution mode”, like, during the summer, I plan and then during the school year, I execute what I planned. There is very little time for error that I leave myself. Which I'm trying to get better at, but that's just kind of how my life works right now. My one big outlet is a friend group that I have. We meet every Sunday, we cook together, and we just chat, and we're very supportive. They're not musicians. I met them like through… through somebody else. And during COVID became really, we became really close because we were our COVID bubble. And, it's… it's really important for me that I have that outlet of people that are not in my field to just talk about life. And the other aspect is I do really like to connect with people. So, I talk to my colleagues that have their doors open every day. I talk to my students a lot like, my doors are always open when I'm in the building. And truth be told, those connections are the ones that… that make my life awesome. And I would not want to miss that. COVID was really hard because nobody was in the building. So, I struggled a lot during that time, and I realized that I need that. I'm totally a social person. The one aspect that… where I feel like I'm actively pursuing the “how do I connect with myself?” is that I am not the typical professor. I'm not the "I come with a pantsuit and like straight hair and whatnot, and I don't crack any jokes." I'm a very fun, jokey, ... not taking life too seriously. Meaning that, like, (Yeah) I need the fun aspect in order to do everything so intensely that I do. And I'm very open about that. And I'm very active with that. So everybody knows that even if we have a very intense meeting, there's at least one joke that's going to be cracked. Whereas some people roll their eyes and others will laugh. But I... I chose to be the professor that shows up in a nice shirt and jeans. Like I'm not, I don't show up in dress pants, and I just choose every day the person that I am and not the person that I think a professor is. So, I guess the short answer is my life is the life that I chose. I don't work until a certain hour to escape my job and then have fun, and therefore, I don't feel the need of spending more me time.
Paula
Okay, that makes sense. Well, can I just bug you with one question then? Since you asked it to your students.... if you were not able to be a musician today, what would you do?
Sonja
I would go into some kind of administration. I mean, I love my planner. So, no. I'm… I'm serious. I mean, I'm a huge organizer. (Yeah) It comes from the way (Mhmm) I grew up. I am in a lot of positions here where I organize events. They all are university-related, but like, whenever there's an organizational task, I actually like doing these types of things. So, I think I could be plopped in an organizational leadership team into any organization, be it music or not. Work my way through, through how it works, and actually be happy. I like getting things done, being it music or not. So yeah, I would definitely do some kind of administrative job.
Paula
Yeah, I think it suits you. I mean, you still do it.
Sonja
Yeah.
Paula
But thank you so much. I think this is a good point where we can stop. But I'm really, really, really happy that we got a chance to talk again, and (Yes, me too.) you opened so much about this. I learned a lot about you and it has given me a different perspective because, as I said, outside, you're someone that I admire- I still do. But now even more, because of this openness that you have with this topic. So, thank you so much for being here.
Sonja
Yeah, thank you so much for doing this. I think it's really important that we talk about everything that has to do with being a human that can be in this world and feel like they belong. And I think it's a lifelong journey, but what you're doing is really important for the musicians that are still out there and students, and don't necessarily know where they're going yet. And that's totally okay.
Paula
Well, thank you, Sonja. We'll talk later.
Sonja
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Paula
Bye.
Sonja
Bye.
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