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Writer's pictureLet's Fermata

ERIKA BURNS

Paula

Hi, Erika welcome to Let's Fermata! I'm really happy to have you here. How are you today?


Erika

Hi, Paula. Thanks for having me. I'm doing great.


Paula

I'm really, really happy. You know, I know we met at OU and we kind of crossed paths over there, but I wanted to share that we got in touch again a couple of months ago. And it was actually because I was doing the research for this podcast. And I was looking for different resources that exist for musicians on mental health or musical wellness in general. And, then I follow this account, the Classical Wellness account on Instagram, and I just kind of said: "Let me go back to this account and see what's there." And then I saw you, and I was very excited because I was like: "Oh, I know that girl, she's amazing. And...and so it was like two worlds that connected, and I was very happy for you, so that's why I messaged you. And then I thought: "Oh, well, maybe she might be interested in coming to my podcast." So, thank you so much for… for accepting the invite and congratulations again for that. I just wanted to ask, how was the experience?


Erika

Thanks. Oh, it was really wonderful. I think what Jelaine is doing with the Classical Wellness account and then the Symposium, it's so important, and it's something that I really wished I'd known about, or it had existed when like, we were in undergrad, in high school. Because I think it's just so new for us to be talking openly about this, and all of us go through these things.


Paula

Yes, you're right. I think even, you know, it's been a journey for me doing this podcast now of opening up, and I still find my... my ideas being like: " Is this really gonna be listened to? Is this gonna be worth it? Are musicians gonna be feeling comfortable opening up about these things?" And I don't know. In the end, I always think like: "Well, I am doing it. So I hope others do." And so I'm very happy because so far, the interviews have been very informative and I've learned a lot about the musicians in another aspect. Because I think when we're studying, there's so much of just playing, playing, playing. And, I remember when I met you that the issue with the injuries was something that was there. Like, you did talk openly about this. So I always thought: "Oh, that's nice that she does." I don't think that we talked so much about the mental aspect of that, which is something that I did want to talk more about today. And so, I guess first, you were injured when you were 16, right? The first time?


Erika

Yeah, I was practicing too many hours without taking breaks leading up to some competitions. And it was just one of those things that I didn't know we could get injured. So I was feeling pain leading up to the competition, and I was just kind of pushing through it, and I got through the competition, and I won it, and then the next day, I couldn't pick up my bow. And I just had no idea what was happening. Because no one had ever had a musician-related injury before. At least in my studio growing up, that I knew about. That doesn't mean we weren't talking about it.  (Yeah)  But I think that's a... that was just kind of a weird thing at the time. Be like, why, why are we getting hurt?


Paula

And how was your approach to that? Physically and emotionally? I mean, you're young, and then this happens. How did you deal with it?


Erika

I think you're following whatever advice is given, and at the time it's, you know, rest, go do physical therapy. But then you're immediately supposed to be back in orchestra and playing. And now you're just managing this weird thing that makes you feel like less of a musician, I think, like I felt like there was something wrong with me personally. And I don't think... I don't think it felt like a big thing yet. But then it never fully healed, and so that's where I think the mental toll started to take an effect. Because I was then always dealing with pain.


Paula

Wow… And how did you manage? Because you were young and you were in high school, right? And then you decided this is going to be your career. Did you always know that this was going to be your profession growing up?


Erika

Not actually until the same year I got injured, actually. I went to a chamber music camp, and it was just such an incredible experience that I knew that I wanted to study music in college. I just wanted to be a teacher and a chamber musician. And just going through that made me know that I wanted to do this.


Paula

I think that injury did lead you to search for opportunities that helped you with that, right? Because in your master’s and then your doctorate, you were studying with Hal Grossman, right? And he was very focused on the natural ways of playing and healing. And I felt that everyone in that studio was very much interested in healing from an injury. So, I guess it did lead you through this route, right? And I wanted to know, in your master's and then the doctorate, how you managed this. I mean, was it still very consistent, this pain?


Erika

Well, so actually, when I was an undergrad, what happened was that my pain started developing and changing, and it became more than just an overuse injury where I would just hurt from playing. And I was developing all this extra nerve pain and soreness and fatigue. So, when I was ending undergrad, I actually didn't know if I could do this, but I wanted to figure it out. So, going to my master's with Mr. Grossman, I did start being able to play more at the beginning. And so I was very hopeful that I was going to be able to make a change. And then it kind of plateaued in grad school a bit. So, I was just dealing with it the best I could. But a lot of the times, you know, we would have these two-hour-long orchestra rehearsals,  (Yeah) three times a week. And in the first five to ten minutes, my shoulder would start tightening up and hurting. And then I was just dealing with it the rest of the rehearsal. And you can't really stop and play that much. I mean, maybe you'd have a moment to just stretch out, in like a rest or something or a quick break. So I was doing the best I could, but I… I think I was... I was trying to pretend to be a music student as best I could, but I didn't really feel like a full music student. Because just there was this thing that was preventing me from going all out, I guess.


Paula 

I just can't imagine it because I mean, I have gotten hurt. I think, more so in the last couple of years when I had an orchestra job and I was, you know, sitting down more times and playing so much more, and I've always been a bit of: "I don't want to give up," you know. And that's wrong because I'm also... " I know I have to stop, and if not, it's going to get worse." And I think it's also about realizing that it's not going to disappear. You just have to understand how your body is working and changing. I mean, we grow up, our bodies change. And you know, my experience at OU was "those rehearsals are tiresome," but, I never felt this... what you're saying now. So, knowing that we were in the same room and you were living all of this, it's just kind of, "whoa," because I mean, I want to ask, did you have other people in your studio that you could talk about this?


Erika

I had a few. I think that I was very lucky that Mr. Grossman brought together a very warm and welcoming group of students. So we could talk a lot about these things, and everyone was very supportive. But at the same time, we're all kind of trying to survive and get through everything. So,  (Yeah) there was a lot of, I would say, mutual support, but I still felt kind of like... at the time, I felt like I was the odd one out. Just not really able to tell everyone: "I'm doing the best I can, and my best is like maybe 40 percent of what I know I can do."  (Mmm) So... but I had support outside of the studio, too. So, I was always trying to find different like, experts to work with to kind of just help with the more medical or treatment side of things. So, that really helped me get through the degrees.


Paula

Yeah, well, I just want to acknowledge here that I never thought less of you, even if you were in pain or if you were taking breaks. I actually admired it because I always remember you stretching, and I was always like: "I should do the same." But I just, there's so much pressure when you're studying of like: "You have to play, and you have to practice, and this is what defines me as a musician." And I think that being out of school now, it has forced me to shift my perspective. And I did want to get into that with you too because I think for me for a long time, it was: "If I'm not playing my cello, I'm not a musician." And at some point, it's: "Yeah, that's the tool that I use, but it doesn't mean that I'm not a musician, right?" So, I did want to talk about how has your experience been going out of school. 'Cause I remember when we started talking again, you mentioned something about: "Life isn't what I expected after graduating." And it's funny because I feel the same way, and everyone that I've kind of started getting in touch with again, that studied with us, they say the same thing. And I'm like: "Well, what did we expect?" So I want... wanted to ask how you started the, you know, your, your master's and your doctorate, that path? What was your idea after that? Or how it shifted when you graduated actually.


Erika

Yeah, so probably like a lot of grad students, I wanted to be a college professor. I wanted to teach, and I wanted to play chamber music, and that was the dream. And so I think my last year of coursework was when I was starting to acknowledge that my body wasn't healing. Every year, I thought “this is going to be the year I figure it out.” And then I didn't. And so I started realizing that I didn't feel prepared for making all the videos that I would need to have for a body of work and that I didn't have all the resume things that I might need just to look good for a, for a college search. And so I knew that I was probably going to end up going the private teaching route, which I'm okay with. I love, I love teaching. And so I knew I was going to probably have to spend some time doing that. But I also didn't know what I was going to do about playing. And so I decided to take at least a year off because I just knew that my body was starting to burn out. Just, I'd been doing so much, and nothing was getting better, and so I was just thinking maybe I finally need to give myself a rest and time to start exploring the different things that are out there for treatments. So I essentially left or finished my coursework, and then the pandemic started. (Oh) So, none of us were playing.  (Yes) So it actually made a lot of sense to… to take the year off and was writing the dissertation. And, so life after that started looking like teaching and doing my Franklin Method certification and figuring out what could a career in music look like if I wasn't even being a performer.


Paula

I truly admire what you've done. I think that you've taken something that was, a limitation in a way of your career or what you expected it to be, and then you transformed it into something that not only helps you but helps others. And I think that's what you're doing now with the Franklin Method and with all your workshops. So, I'm really happy to see that you're active still like that. And it's funny because I don't think less of you at all. But I find that in myself, and maybe you've experienced this too when you're looking from inside, you're kind of like: "Something's missing." But I don't think that's necessarily what people perceive, right? To me, you're still a violinist, you're still a professional musician, and I think you just found a niche. So, how are you coping now? Cause I mean, you mentioned that you had a burnout, right? Was it just physical or was it also mental?


Erika

I think it was all mental, physical, emotional. And I think it's... it tends to be something that isn't just one source. So I think burnout is probably the accumulation of a lot of different stresses. So, I first started getting burnout after my doctoral exams, which is  (Yeah) probably pretty understandable for anyone who's done it. It is an  (Yes) exhausting process. And then you throw in other life factors and then, the body and, I mean, I'm really into the whole like somatic mind-body connection. And so recognizing that there's this feedback loop between our mental health, our physical health. So, at the time, I was just, I was so exhausted, and I tried to practice, I just couldn't. My brain couldn't put together any sort of thought process and I just was so tired all the time. And then you kind of sometimes have something happen and you like: "Oh, I have to be a human. I have to do all this stuff." And you start functioning again. But if you don't address it, I think for me, my burnout kind of lingered in the background and then later on it surfaced. And so, I think it's something you have to address in a lot of different ways.


Paula

And how was the process of writing your dissertation? Because I feel that the DMA is hard because you have all this coursework. Then you have to do the exams, which are a big thing in itself, and then you have to write a document. And so, for example for me, I put it off a year because I was also at the time, I was lucky to have a job immediately after I finished my exams, and I moved to Ecuador. And I remember I was trying to do everything at once. Like, "I'm going to write this. I don't want to pay the fees. I want..." But you know, at some point, I realized “I need a break too.” So I was burned out too. And I think the first thing that left my mind was the dissertation. I... I took, I think it was a semester off, and then, I mean, I still paid for it, of course, but I didn't work on it. And then, kind of like, the process was very time and energy-consuming. And finally, it was done, I was like: " I'm not even sure if people are going to read this document, but it's out of my system." And so, I wanted to ask how was your process. Because for me, it was quite difficult.


Erika 

I think I'm starting to hear from other people that we all have a very stressful time... (Yes...) writing the dissertation. And I was actually told by a friend, at one point that you almost have to treat it like a part-time job, or even a full-time job. And so, a lot of times people stop playing during their dissertation anyway. So, I was trying to get it done in a year, and I really wish I had given myself an extra semester, just for the ease. Because I think I wouldn't have been so incredibly stressed out and then even more burnt out. But I… I tried to get it all done in a year, and I was living in Ohio at that point. So, I had just moved to Ohio from Oklahoma, and I was having to get everything shipped to me in terms of books and materials. And just being outside of the school environment, writing your dissertation is also a very lonely experience. So it's... it's just an odd… it's an odd thing to have to go through outside of the school experience.


Paula

Yeah. I feel like for the exams, for example, you have this... like you're in the school, and you have all these resources that are close and available. And then the dissertation, I mean, maybe, I don't know, and I want to ask about your topic, but mine was about a Puerto Rican composer and these works that were basically abandoned. They were handwritten. So, I had some friends help me type it in Sibelius because I didn't even know how to use Sibelius at that point. I wanted to digitalize this music but also analyze it. It was very difficult because he was alive, but there wasn't a lot of information on this composer and on these pieces specifically. So I had to go back home, and I remember not even telling people I was going back home. Because I needed to focus in the library and, you know, it was a very odd experience going back home and "Oh, I'm not going to go to the beach. I actually have to write this. I'm not going to tell my friends." Then I went back to Ecuador, and I was: “Okay, I'm going to work on this." But even emailing the professors and waiting for their feedback… it was very anxiety-inducing for me. And I just wanted to share that this piece that I recently launched, the Leró. It was actually the same composer from my dissertation, and it was so exhausting that I remember he wrote that piece for me in 2019 when I published my dissertation, and it wasn't until now, 2024, that I had the time and the energy to get into this project. And I think we forget how much pressure we have when we're going through all of this. Anyways, I'm just sharing this because it is like: “I don't think I've talked about this with anyone actually." The whole like, writing the document process. So, thank you for sharing your input. How was your, process on writing it with the research and everything from Ohio?


Erika

Yeah, well, I had an interesting thing happen… was that I gave my doctoral proposal defense on a slightly different topic than I ended up writing my dissertation on. And when I went into the… the defense, I was trying to explore something that hadn't been written a lot about for musicians, which was cueing and imagery for movement. And this is something that really comes a lot from my Franklin Method work. But at the time, it was just still early on, and I didn't really know how to connect it all. And so my committee basically said: "We trust you. Go off, move to Ohio, and figure this out, and we'll see what you write." Which, I don't know if they always do that. Which was a lot of pressure, and I actually felt like I had to start from scratch. So, I spent the first couple months of writing just in all these internet archives for like, the National Institute of Health and Sciences looking at all this research. And so I finally found this really wonderful system to write about from the world of kinesiology and sports science. And it was essentially this way to teach people how to analyze movement and how to teach movement-based sports. And I looked at this, and I said: "I think I could completely use this to write about what I want to write about with helping violinists and violin teachers with the movement side of things that can cause pain. So, I had a very kind of, I think, truncated experience having to redo all my lit research  (Yeah) and then I had only, it felt like, four or five months to write the entire thing and get it done. So, I always say to people who ask me about the doctorate it's just: "Don't do your dissertation the way I did my dissertation because it was a very stressed thing." But I had a friend actually who told me... and she'd done her dissertation too, that she was warned it can take up to seven years for someone to feel creatively inspired to start new projects after doing a dissertation because it is such a humongous outpouring of our creativity, of our mental, you know, activity. And, so we have to be really proud of this huge thing we've just done but also know that it may take a little time to recover.


Paula 

Yes, definitely. I sensed that a lot and, you know, I think for me it was the aspect of, I mean, we both lived it, right? Like, we moved, and then we worked on our dissertation. And I think when you move, you're always trying to find your balance again. Every time I've moved, I feel that I'm still Paula, right? But, I always analyze: "Was the person I was, for example, in Oklahoma, the best version of me I can be now?” And so I'm always thinking of… of ways of growing. Not only musically, but personally, as a human. I'm like: "Okay, so I had these insecurities. Do I want them to carry on with me when I move to this country?" And…and now I'm living it again in Canada, and I'm always trying to understand that they might always be a part of me, but that maybe it's an opportunity to shine light on other parts of myself. I don't know how you feel about the whole moving process. I know you've done it within the States, but I feel like it's still very different... the states that you've been.


Erika

Yeah, culturally, every state and especially every region is very different. So I grew up in Washington State, and the Pacific Northwest is very different than Oklahoma. And Oklahoma is… has some similarities to Ohio, but even then it's just a little bit different. And so you're, whenever you're moving, you're just having to learn a whole new way of life, and where do you fit in. And I think that I was only in Ohio for a little over two years. So, I didn't really quite put the roots in and settle, and I've come back now to the West Coast, and I love being back. And I think there is that sense of yearning for home that... maybe that was more subconscious because you want to go and explore the world. But when you have, you know, strong ties to a place, it's nice to come back and then just see how you have changed. So I definitely feel like I'm a very different person than I was when I moved eight years from here.


Paula

Yeah. And I guess with that, I wanted to ask… how does it feel going back home? You said it, that you've changed, and musically speaking, how has it been to set roots again? Because there might be contacts that you still had, but things change, you know. New people arise, some people I don't know might have a job that you had before, or... although you left pretty young, right? But, regardless, how was it coming back and settling again?


Erika

You know, it didn't feel so much like I was returning. I was having to start over new. I think being an adult, being a professional… when you're a kid in a place, you don't maybe have the same sense of what the industry is like in your area because you're just a kid playing music in a studio, and you do all the events. So, I think I didn't have a sense of how many people were teaching in the area, you know, and... and just going through the process of establishing myself and working, you know, coaching orchestras in the area just to kind of get going. It's definitely, I think it's challenging even in a new place or- and in a place you've grown up. It's the similar kind of issues of having to build a community and I was really lucky that I've had friends who also came back to the area and have started creating community,and… so I don't feel quite as alone as I did like when I was in Ohio. But it's interesting also coming into an existing area and having new ideas and perspectives and wanting to maybe create change in a culture, and just seeing how much resistance there can be. Or just how many kind of beliefs about music that are just really long-standing that can be in an area too.


Paula

And right now you mentioned that you're in a playing sabbatical, right?  (Mhmm) So how has that… with all that we've talked about, you know, the expectations that we have of ourselves, how has this evolved within your self-perception as a musician? How do you feel like, mentally about this right now? Of not being able to play.


Erika

I feel actually a lot better now than I than I did initially. I think when I first started, I really didn't know what was going on with my shoulders and my spine that were causing the pain. And since then, I've done a lot of work. So with my Franklin Method training, it's a lot of anatomy, and movement, and looking at the ways we fundamentally move. So I've been doing a lot of exploration with my own mentors on how is my body moving in daily life?, and how does it move when I bring the instrument to my shoulder? And suddenly it's realizing: "Oh, there are these movement patterns that I hadn't even realized I was doing. And they're either causing my body to be out of balance or muscles to work extra hard." And… I didn't have that information when I started the sabbatical. And now I know a little bit more of those areas. So I'm kind of, I think I'm patient in the sense that this is a long process and this is like a lifelong goal of being able to play music and feel good while I play. And it may take me another year or two to really teach my body different ways of moving because we're creating new habits. And trying to, you know, replace all the old ones. So most of the time, I feel pretty good. And then, every once in a while, someone will ask me: "Hey, can you play a gig?" And I'm protecting myself by saying no, but I do always feel a little bit of guilt that I can't say yes when I want to say yes.


Paula

And how long has it been now that you've been on sabbatical?


Erika

Since 2020, mid of the year. So I guess we're almost on four years now. But I teach, and I play a little bit when I teach, so I actually have noticed that giving myself time to not play and to teach and think about technique and musicality makes me actually feel like a more expressive and strong player now despite not playing that much. I think it's sometimes you just need that little bit of that time. And when you're teaching, you're constantly referring to different concepts. Your brain's learning all that stuff too. So,  (Yeah) I think it's really cool.


Paula

Yeah. I feel that getting out of school, especially after studying with the same teacher for a long time, for me it was very difficult to accept that I was on my own. That in reality, I was always alone, and that this is my journey. And I think through teaching, I've solidified my own voice. Because for a long time, I was very dependent on that reassurance. And it took me a while. I think even while I was in Ecuador, I was still sending Dr. Ruck videos and like: "Hey, what do you think about this? And he's like, you know, he would say things, but he's doing his own thing now. I'm doing my own thing. And it took me a while to accept: "Okay, I'm a professional. I don't have to have that validation." Of course, if it comes, that's amazing. Like, I'm not gonna lie, but if it doesn't, then it's okay. And for you, how has this process been… of reasserting your voice? As a musician in general, like, I'm not even talking through the violin. But how do you feel? Because you've done so many things like with the Franklin Method, and you've had workshops and in various places and… how has that solidified your own voice, for example?


Erika

Well, I think about how sometimes teaching is a performance, and sometimes teaching is an adventure, and you are kind of discovering things. And I think that both skills are really important for developing a voice. We need to be curious and always asking questions. And I think the more that I've been on my own in teaching, I'm really interested in helping students develop their metacognitive skills. So teaching them to think about “how do I break down this problem spot?” or, “what am I looking for musically here? What ideas can I develop on my own?” And there are many teachers that I think will tell you to play a certain way. And I was really, really lucky that in my last like… year, two years of taking lessons, I was taking lessons with Dr. Minjong Ko, who was from the Sicilia String Quartet. And one of the first lessons that really sticks in my mind... she pointed to a chord in the Ravel Violin Sonata and said: “There's an F here and an F sharp here. How does that transform what's happening in the piece?” And that question has stuck with me for years now. ‘Cause the idea of just like really delving into the music and asking what's in it and how do things that change affect the way we hear it, and kind of going on those, you know, artistic explorations. And doing that I might not have all the answers, but I think I am starting to feel more confident about developing the ideas. Because I can, like, think about: ‘How do I break it down, how do I explain it to someone? And hopefully, can I help them to do that same work themselves.”


Paula

And in your practice sessions, I guess more so when you were in school, how did you manage to divide? I'm curious because you had all this consciousness and I find that being very conscious of our body is very difficult. I think we're not trained to do that too much. And for me, it's been more about… yeah, my teacher was very focused on this idea, but I don't think I grasped the concept until I started doing yoga. Because I wanted to do something outside of music to release because for me, I've always suffered with it. Performance anxiety and, you know, imposter syndrome. I think it's been like my two friends going along the whole, my whole musical career. And at some point, I realized “I want to do something that's not just music. I need to understand that I'm a human.” But that's when I felt this connection with my body, and I, I've seen how in the last year and a half- it's where I've been more focused on this physical connection- and I do see a difference in my playing, but it takes me a lot of time. So I'm wondering for you… how you manage to divide your practice between rest, focus, physical focus, and then musical? How do you do that? It's a lot. 


Erika

Still trying to figure it out. One of the things I've really come into in the last year or so is talking about levels of complexity. And so, when we are practicing, there's so much stuff going on. And so, if you want to deal with body awareness, you have to lower the complexity of all the musical challenges. So, for me, I really got into the habit of spending the first two to five minutes of my practice doing open strings. And when I did open strings, I could really explore my body. And I've since then recognized that probably as I worked on more musical things, my body awareness would go away. You know, we're all still working on that. And I think…I think I was still trying to figure it all out when I was in grad school. My kind of philosophy now is that if I think about the music first, I can start figuring out the technical elements that support that musical vision. And then I am listening, I guess, for my body to tell me where does it feel restricted. Like, "what does it feel like I want to be able to do? And is my body letting me do that?" And then I maybe take a step back and go, "what can I do for like a physical release?" You know, like a shoulder massage or a stretch or just some movement that can give me the ease that I need and then go back and try the technique again and see if I can then add back to the music. So I think it's constantly peeling back layers and then adding them back on and it's just… it's a long process you have to be patient with.


Paula 

Yes. And right now, since you're not actively playing the violin, but you're still involved in various musical activities, do you miss the violin? Physically? I mean, do you miss playing?


Erika

Yes, I really do. I miss… I miss mostly playing with people. And... and I just miss like, I realized I really missed creating sound. Like when I would just play around with a scale and went: “Oh, the violin is so beautiful.” Like you sometimes forget, I think, when you're just spending all this time beating yourself up. Because I think we do do that a lot in practice rooms in music school. It's just cut ourselves down. And then just remember then that: “Oh, this is such a beautiful instrument. And this is a sound that we're making.” So I think I'm learning to love the violin again after a lot of pain and just, you know, agony.


Paula 

And do you play other instruments or have you thought about playing something else?


Erika

Well, I play a tiny bit of piano because my mom is a pianist, and we would play duets growing up a bit. And so I really want to get back and do more of that with her. And, actually, when I was in grad school, I had to learn to play a little bit of double bass to teach one of the classes for the music ed students. And as I've been coaching orchestras in the last year, I actually had to pick up the bass again and like, demonstrate. And so I think I can play like a tiny bit of bass at a sixth-grade level and that's about it. And then actually I sing. I love singing and I haven't done it in a few years, but, I think that's one of the best ways to make music with people is to sing.


Paula 

I wanted to ask because I used to sing more before I was a musician. I mean, before I was fifteen when I started playing. I used to sing in my room and just like: "Oh, I want to be a singer." And at some point, I realized when I started taking music too seriously, I cut that off. And even for this, the Leró piece that I had to sing just a little bit at the beginning, I was so self conscious of it. I was like: "Oh my God, my voice is not trained." And then I'm: "Of course it's not, you never trained it, right?" And it's not meant to be like an operatic sound with the piece, but I do feel like it's something that I would want to explore. So it's our first instrument. We just don't think about it that way. But I, yeah, I was curious because right now, I think I'm in a point where I'm discovering new things that inspire me. And I think this idea of this podcast was a little bit weird at first because I always feel that: "Oh, I'm not being a cellist while I'm recording a podcast." You know, but I've found that every conversation has been so inspiring. And it might not mean that I'm always going to be carrying my cello around, but just the fact of doing this is helping me a lot just to connect with musicians at another level. Because, like you said, I love chamber music and it's favorite thing. Like, my dream has always been like: "Oh, I want to have a quartet and, you know, just perform chamber music, chamber music...” or not just a quartet, but any kind. I love it. But then again, I feel a little bit bad cause I don't want to practice as much. And I mean, with you, I think it's been kind of a forced idea or... I mean, it was a decision, right? for you too. But I just find that I wanted to ask you about it because I have the opportunity to practice, but I don't always feel like I want to practice. And going back to this idea of the burnout, aside from the mental aspect of this, physically or... I guess it does go into the mental aspect of it. Like, once stop having to go to a lesson weekly and perform in studio or whatever, did you feel like you wanted to take a break outside of the injury?


Erika

That's a good question. I don't know. I think I probably wouldn't have. Because I think that we just always push through things. And at least in this country, there's not as many built-in breaks if you're not in school. And even if you are a music student, you're expected to go take a summer off. Or sorry, you're, you're supposed to go, you know,  (Yeah)  go to summer festivals,  (Yeah) not take a summer off. I had to take a summer off a couple of years just because I knew I was just so physically burnt out. I couldn't do it, and I really missed it, and I felt like I was letting myself down. But now I think it's really good for us to take time off and to be a musician, I think we need to be interacting with life and meeting other people, reading books, trying new foods, exploring places…because it gives us so much to connect to musically and so much context. And I was really lucky that I… I love, I love learning and I love academics. So, when I was even in like, undergrad and I couldn't practice as much cause of my injuries, I would try to take really interesting classes. And I found that some of the things I've taken in other fields, I have been able to draw into like a musical lesson, and just give other context. And I think that kind of makes us well-rounded musicians. So, I feel like actually a more... a more expressive person and a more expressive musician just from taking the time off and listening to music and thinking about music. And I think that the way I think about music and like, phrasing and stuff has changed completely. And that happened after I stopped playing. So it's just interesting. Sometimes, I think rest gives our body and our brain the time it needs to absorb and grow.


Paula

Yeah, it definitely does. I am still learning about that part. But I think I've gotten better. I think before I wouldn't… If I took like a day off, I was like: "Oh my God, what are you doing? Your scales are not going to be as in shape as they were." And now. I realize that when I take time off and then come back, actually, my body feels better, and I'm more conscious of it again. Because I think things keep piling up, little discomforts. And in that sense, you're, I'm super certain that you're way more conscious than I am with the body. I am working towards that though. But I wanted to ask too. With all these physical aspects that deal with in your workshops and your own practice and your students, I assume you teach in the same manner…has it ever crossed paths with these mental aspects? For example, performance anxiety? I don't know if I am proposing the question in the right way, but my question is if it's something about, for example… with someone that goes through performance anxieties, is there a way that this method, you feel helps in a specific way?


Erika 

Yeah. So we are always consciously working to engage with the body awareness, but that is requiring us to be engaging with our nervous system. And so, some of the things I've learned in the Franklin Method have to do with the relationship to our breathing. From that kind of… your diaphragmatic breathing or even sometimes we'll do this proprioceptive tapping where you're just tapping along the skin, and you're activating all these nerve receptors that give you information about temperature, and pressure, and movement, and gravity. And even just tapping those, when you tap in a… a circle around your gut area, you actually can calm yourself because it is activating your parasympathetic nervous system. So, I've tried to do a lot more with performance anxiety from this somatic mind-body perspective. But I've also learned a lot from mental health resources. So, like your square breathing and referencing stuff from Noah Kageyama's Bulletproof Musician and Centering. I try to address that with some students before recitals just to give them a chance to practice, that… you know, practice performance. But, it can be challenging just trying to fit everything in as a teacher. There's just too many things that we could work on. So I would love to do more with it. And then personally, just, I really value therapy, and learning more skills from my therapist has been very helpful.


Paula

Yes. I did want to ask, did you ever suffer performance anxiety, for example?


Erika

I'm kind of lucky in that not very much. When I was a kid, we had to do, well, we didn't have to… we often did monthly recitals. So we were playing our rep all the time. And so, I had a couple of bad instances of performance anxiety, and then that usually prompted a, "I'm gonna figure out something." So I would often be backstage bouncing around because I knew that I could harness my energy, and I would eat bananas and various things that have, you know, I guess, dubious claims about if they're helpful. But they seem to help me. So I haven't had as much with music, but actually, I found that doing workshops and presentations, that's when I actually get more nervous. So you'll often see me backstage like now, and I'll be like tapping along my chest and stuff, just trying to do some of these parasympathetic nervous system exercises. So...


Paula

No, that's great. Yeah, I think for me it was the opposite. I think I always had performance anxiety speaking in public. And then when I got into music, it kind of shifted. So, of course I get nervous, but I feel more comfortable speaking up than playing. But I think it has, you know, with me, therapy as well has been amazing. I started taking it more seriously… I mean, while I was in OU, I was already taken advantage of the fact that I could get help there. But the last three years, I've taken it more seriously. And I think it has at least made me more aware. And, you know, realizing that, yeah, I'm not alone. And even if I am, I can find my way out.  (Mhmm) I can support myself. And I guess with that in school, I didn't feel comfortable enough talking about these topics. Because we're studying music, and we're all supposed to be, you know... I was doing my master's, I was doing my doctorate. "I'm not supposed to be so insecure." But I really was. But I'm really happy that you haven't had that. I mean, you said you experience it now with public speaking, in a way, that's what you do. But with the instrument, I'm… I'm really happy you haven't gone through that because it's very horrible.


Erika 

I'm so sorry. I mean, the few times I've had it, I just would feel like... you almost lock down and you're in survival mode.


Paula

Yes.


Erika 

I almost wonder though, if some of my pain issues kind of separated me from having those experiences because I was just pain managing while I played, and I wasn't always getting to maybe be as vulnerable as an artist. And I sometimes wonder if that's part of the performance anxiety too, is that we're, we are just trying to make something happen, a moment happen musically. And if you're just almost disconnected from that, (Yeah.) maybe that changes things. I don't know.


Paula

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm just... it's just interesting because I do want to ask this question to other people. Since I'm taking the time to talk to all other musicians, because, I know that there's people that I would never thought they dealt with this, but they have. And to me, that's surprising because I've always felt that I'm quite obvious about it. And then some people are like: "No, like, I didn't notice it." It happened a lot in Ecuador where they would be like... you know, I would have a solo or something, and I'd be dying inside. And they were like: "But you look so calm," and I’m like: "Well, I'm trying to keep it together." But you know...


Erika

I would agree. I always thought you looked very calm when you played.


Paula

That's funny. Well, thank you. At least I can kind of act my way through it, even if it's not. But I'm really happy we caught up again. I think I moved to Ecuador and in a way I detached myself from the States for a little bit. Which is odd, even through music, like, some people will be like: "Did you hear this album?" And I'm like: "No, it doesn't reach Ecuador. You know, it's not that popular." And now, I got back to Canada,  so I realized: "I want to get back in touch with people that I studied with." You know, seeing other colleagues like yourself doing things that inspire me is...is really nice. And I'm really happy that you agreed to talk with me today. And so I think I just wanted to end this by asking…since you have said that you were open about mental health. Do you feel that it's still a topic that needs to keep opening up in the music world?


Erika

Definitely. And I think that it's something that I think, you know, because I spend most of my life teaching, I think it's something that teachers need to be open with students about. Maybe not always getting into the weeds of like, a student's individual mental health, but just being willing to support. You know, support them if they need resources, and I'm really interested... there's this biopsychosocial model of pain that's kind of been circulating around for a number of decades now. But one of the things is that our mental health our emotional health, plays a direct role on the tension and the stress that we have in our bodies. So I think that the more we are. being open about this, just the more we're supporting our health overall.


Paula

Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Erika. It was really nice talking to you and I hope we keep in touch. Maybe we can have another conversation on another topic later on, or we'll see how it goes. Thank you so much.


Erika

I'd love that. It's just been so great to catch up again.


Paula

Yes, thank you. And I wish you the best with everything you're doing. I tell you, I'm a fan. I recently started learning more about what you're doing now and just your journey- the little bit I know about it, of course, it's just very inspiring. So, thank you so much, and I'm sure you're helping a lot of other musicians in their journeys too.


Erika

Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. And thank you for shining a light on this because we need more people talking about it for sure.


Paula

Thank you, Erika.


Erika

Bye.

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